2007年10月11日
前波画廊创始人Chris Mao和Metro Pictures画廊的Helene Winer的对话
Helene Winer (HW) Chris，我们已经认识多久了？感觉上好像已经认识一辈子似的。
Chris Mao (CM) 让我想想。我1990年搬到纽约的Tribeca区，好像有缘似的，和你成为邻居。这样算来已经有十七年了。当时我还是MBA（工商管理）的学生，而你却已经在艺术界有十多年的工作经验了。
HW 是啊。我和Janelle Reiring一起，于1980年开办了Metro Pictures。在那之前，我在艺术家空间（Artist’s Space）作了五年的负责人，而Janelle则是Leo Castelli画廊的负责人。
CM 我当时还在武汉，还没来美国。能不能跟我谈谈70年代末艺术家空间的状况。
HW 艺术家空间从过去到现在一直都是一个另类空间，展出没有画廊代理的年轻艺术家的作品。实际上，那时几乎无法想象任何商业画廊愿意展出年轻艺术家的作品。我在那里工作，可以说所有Metro Picture 刚开始展出的画家，都曾在艺术家空间露过面。他们都是初见端倪的新的艺术变化中的一部份。我曾在洛杉矶的一所大学美术馆工作过，当时就已经认识他们中的许多人。他们也曾参加过CalArts。其他的人则来自纽约州水牛城或纽约市等地方。他们在年龄上和审美情趣上多少都有些共同点，而且我和Jenelle在开办画廊以前就和他们已经是朋友了。他们这一代的艺术家能够轻松地运用跨媒体创作，属于第一代自然地使用摄影、电影、录影，及其他传统形式的艺术家。他们以观念为根底，但却不局限于观念艺术家使用非艺术物品的创作方法，同时也不反对具有视觉诱惑性的艺术。摄影，不论是摆拍还是重新改造，就像由其他人执行制作一样，都为艺术家提供了一种新的创作媒体。
CM 这是为什么Metro Pictures能具有如此与众不同的特色。1980年时画廊以合展的方式开幕。那是多么令人刮目相看的一群艺术家！其中包括Sherrie Levine, Robert Longo, Richard Prince, Cindy Sherman等等。他们中的许多人后来纷纷举办了个人展览——比如1980年时Cindy 的个展和1981年时Robert的个展。其他人也相继以个展的形式展出，包括Louise Lawler与Mike Kelley在1982年、Martin Kippenberger 在1987年、Laurie Simmons在1988年、以及Tony Oursler 在1994年的展览。一直到现在，你不但保持与从刚开始就一起合作的艺术家的关系，同时又不断地增加新人，这实在是很少见。
HW 谢谢你的夸奖。看得出来，你事前的确做了些准备。
CM 当你决定为一位艺术家举办第一次展览时，你的考量是什么呢？
HW 首先，Metro Pictures 已经有25年多的历史了。我们重视对于Metro有特别兴趣的艺术家，以及在画廊的环境中能够最好发挥的艺术作品。我们尽最大的努力使画廊成长和改变，既引进年轻的艺术家，又积极地参与新的发展和转变。这对于维持画廊的生命力与相关性是很关键的。我们对第一代的艺术家十分了解，也对他们也很有信心。当我们在考虑增加新人时，也会寻找类似的特质。这是一个主观的、分析性的、而且实际性的问题。我们必须相信这位艺术家以及他所创作的艺术作品。他们应该具备特别而不可否认的的资质，惊人并独特的眼界，以及追求艺术创作的自信与欲求。他们同时必须能在艺术圈内运作。仅仅只有才华、聪慧、以及抱负是不够的。
CM 我还注意到，你们的艺术家都拒绝被定位。最典型的例子当然是从画廊最一开始就一直一起合作的Cindy Sherman。在她的摆拍摄影作品中，她扮演着每一种角色——黑色电影中的女主角、文艺复兴时期的公主、中性的少年等等。有时候她又几乎消失在原始的沼泽之中。你们的许多艺术家都使用多种媒体进行创作。这当中的界线是流动的，也使以前的分类显得陈旧腐朽。这也是为什么我衷心地希望Metro Pictures能成为北京前波画廊的第一家国际“驻村画廊”。
HW 原来不仅仅是因为我们曾经是邻居的私人交情。不过我很高兴你其实还有其他的动机。
CM 确实有。我能对中国当代艺术侃侃而谈，告诉你它现在是多么的热门。但就我看来，许多中国当代艺术家都希望被定位，也许是因为他们不知道还有其他更好的方式。同时，大部份画廊也都喜欢与他们合作，因为这也是新兴收藏家所想要的——能够马上辨认，也就能马上被辨认的作品。这是一个恶性循环。你喜欢挑战和改变现状，这也是我希望这个展览能够开始作的一点事情。
HW 我对这此展览以及你的新画廊感到特别兴奋。我们在北京会看到什么？这将是我们第一次去中国。
CM 太好了！你一向都是先锋。在Soho区开始发展之前你就去了那里，又在Chelsea区还只是个荒凉的出租车工厂时就搬了过去。那时“Chelsea”这个词只会让人想到花卉展，而不是任何对当代艺术有兴趣的人都必须参观的“圣地”。北京的主要画廊区远不在位于城市中心的紫禁城附近。它们都集中在五环，离机场不远。我并没有在大山子（即798）的现有空间开设画廊，而是使用了一个全新的由艾未未设计的空间。它坐落于草场地，不过你也别以为会看到茅屋草舍。这一代还是有点落后的。这么说吧，它目前还处在一个转型的阶段。如果你喜欢三十年前的Tribeca、七十年代的Soho、和九十年代的Chelsea，我想你会喜欢那里的。让我问你最后一个问题：你会带什么去北京呢？
HW 我们挑选了一群足以代表我们画廊广度的艺术家。首先，我们挑选了两位从1980年起就一直与Metro Picture 合作，目前还与Metro保持紧密联系的艺术家：Cindy Sherman的一些早期摄影，和Robert Longo的近期绘画作品。90年代的艺术家以Tony Oursler为代表，会展出他的一件投影作品，以及Gary Simmons的两幅新的绘画作品。我们搬到Chelsea后，T.J.Wilcox也加入了画廊，这次将展出他的一部电影和剪贴作品。最近刚开始与 Metro合作，代表新一代的还在发展过程中的艺术家的，则是Olaf Breuning 和Paulina Olowska。
CM 我们将在北京持续这次的谈话。我很想知道你对看到的每件事物将会有怎样的反应。哦，对了，别忘了要办签证。
Conversation between Chris Mao (Chambers Fine Art) and Helene Winer
October 11, 2007
Conversation between Chris Mao (Chambers Fine Art) and Helene Winer (Metro Pictures)
Helene Winer (HW) How long have we known each other, Chris, it seems forever?
Chris Mao (CM) Let me see. I moved to Tribeca in 1990 and as luck would have it, you turned out to
be my next - door neighbor. So, it’s seventeen years. I was still an MBA student
but you had been in business for ten years already.
HW Yes, that is right. Janelle Reiring and I opened Metro Pictures in 1980. Before that I was
Director of Artist’s Space for five years and Janelle was gallery director for Leo Castelli.
CM I wasn’t around then. I was still in Wuhan. Tell me a bit about Artists Space and the late 1970's.
HW Artists Space was, and is, an alternative space, that showed young artists not represented by galleries. In fact, at that time there were very few commercial galleries that one could imagine young artists showing at. During the period I was there, virtually all of the artists we opened Metro with had shows at Artists Space and were part of a newly defined change in art. Many of the artists I had known from Los Angeles, where I ran a University gallery. Many of them had attended CalArts. Others came out of Buffalo New York and New York City. They had both their generation and their aesthetic somewhat in common, and both Janelle and I were friends with them prior to opening the gallery. It was a generation comfortable with cross media work and the first generation that worked naturally with photographic, film and video, as well as more conventional forms. They were conceptually based, but not restricted to the non art object methods of the conceptualist and not opposed to visually seductive art. Photography, staged or appropriated, was really a new medium for artists to use, as was having work executed by someone else.
CM I think that is why Metro Pictures has such a distinctive character. You opened
with a group show in 1980. Quite an impressive group! Sherrie Levine, Robert
Longo, Richard Prince, Cindy Sherman among others. Many of these went on
to have solo shows in the next few years – Cindy in 1980, Robert in 1981. Others
soon followed. Louise Lawler and Mike Kelley in 1982, Martin Kippenberger in
1987, Laurie Simmons in 1988, Tony Oursler in 1994. Right up to today, you
have the rare ability to keep many of the artists you started with while adding new
ones.
HW Thank you for the compliment. I see you have really done some homework.
CM What is it you look for when you decide to exhibit an artist for the first time?
HW Well, firstly, after more than 25 years, we care that the artists are specifically interested in Metro and that we are interested in the artists work within the context of the gallery. We have made a concerted effort to grow and change, adding younger artists and trying to stay involved with new developments. This is essential for a gallery to maintain its vitality and relevance. The first generation of artists we knew well and believed in, and we look for similar qualities when considering adding an artist. It is a subjective, analytic and pragmatic consideration. We must believe in the artist as well as the art. They should have a special unmistakable intelligence, a remarkable unique vision, great conviction and overriding need to pursue their art. The must also be able to function within the art world context. It is not enough to be talented, smart and ambitious.
CM . Another thing I have noticed about your artists is how they
refuse to be type-cast. The classic case, of course, is Cindy Sherman with whom
the gallery has been associated since the very beginning. In her staged photographs
she has been everybody - a film noir actress, a Renaissance princess, an
androgynous youth. At times she nearly disappears altogether into the primal ooze.
So many of your artists work in more than one medium. The boundaries are fluid,
the old categories obsolete. And that is why I was really keen to have Metro
Pictures as the first foreign “gallery in residence” in Beijing.
HW So it's not just because we used to be neighbors, which I think is a nice personal touch, but I am glad to hear there was more to your impulse.
CM There is indeed. I could say a lot about the contemporary Chinese art world today.
How hot it is. But as I see it, most Chinese artists today like to be type-cast because
they do not know any better. And most of the galleries like to deal with them
because this is what new collectors want – something that they recognize and that
will in turn be recognized. It is a vicious circle. You like to shake things up and
that is what I think we can begin to do with this show.
HW I am excited about the show and your new gallery. Tell me a bit about what we will find in Beijing. It will be our first trip to China.
CM Alright! You have always been a pioneer. You went to Soho before it took off and
you moved to Chelsea when it was still mostly taxi-workshops and pretty
bleak. In those days the word “Chelsea” was more likely to evoke the Chelsea
Flower Show than an essential stop for anybody interested in contemporary art.
The main gallery districts in Beijing are nowhere near the center of town, the
Forbidden City. They are mostly near the Fifth Ring Road, not too far from the
Airport. I did not move into a pre-existing space in the Dashanzi District (798)
but into a new space designed by Ai Weiwei. It is located in Caochangdi Village
but do not come expecting to see thatched cottages. It is quite gritty. Let’s just say
it is in an interesting transitional state. If you liked Tribeca thirty years ago and
Soho in the seventies, and Chelsea in the nineties, I think you will like it. One final question. What are you bringing to Beijing?
HW We selected a group that represents the span of our gallery. We start with two artists who began with Metro in 1980 and are closely associated with Metro: Cindy Sherman, with some of her earliest photographs, and Robert Longo, who has included recent drawings. In the 90's we began showing Tony Oursler, represented by a projection piece and Gary Simmons with two new paintings. T.J.Wilcox, who joined the gallery after our move to Chelsea, shows a film and collage. Amongst the artists who are newly associated with Metro is Olaf Breuning and Paulina Olowska whose work is part of a developing generation of artists.
CM We will continue this discussion in Beijing. I will be curious to see how you respond to everything you see. By the way, don’t forget you need a visa.
